So, it seems that I have upset a few people that I know and that are in my gene-pool over this blog. First off let me make this clear, I am not trying to convert anyone with this blog. I am merely here for my benefit and the benefit of those who like to debate or like to have conversation about the subjects of philosophy and religions. If you don't like what I have to say about your superstition then hit the X at the top right of your screen. We all have a keyboard and some type of "mouse". Although I prefer the wireless one. You may prefer the one with the wire, so that you may beat your children when they ask questions like, Why aren't there any black Mormons? Or my favorite, Why are the founders of all the major Abrahamic religions illiterate and in the case of Joseph Smith a convicted felon in the state of New York?
Secondly, I will never respect a form of belief that has murdered untold millions and tortured untold millions in order to further their religion. Atheism and certain forms of religion have been disrespected and forced into this blind ignorance for almost seventeen hundred years, if you count Judaism it's been much longer than that! So don't ask me to respect such an embarrassing part of human history. There are certain people within my gene-pool that may consider them selves Southern Baptists. I ask why? What makes you put yourself in with that type of person? Personally I thought they were Mormon. But I guess if I was given the choice between being Mormon and Southern Baptist, I would have chosen a shotgun too.
In closing, don't ask or tell me to respect your religion or beliefs. I don't walk into your church and ask or tell you and your fellow history deniers to think and rationalize! If that happened, immediately the Bible goes where it belongs! In libraries and bookstores all over the world the Bible would be placed into Mythology. I fear death just like any normal, sane person on this Earth. The difference between having faith in religion and having faith in your fellow human is reality!
Secondly, I will never respect a form of belief that has murdered untold millions and tortured untold millions in order to further their religion. Atheism and certain forms of religion have been disrespected and forced into this blind ignorance for almost seventeen hundred years, if you count Judaism it's been much longer than that! So don't ask me to respect such an embarrassing part of human history. There are certain people within my gene-pool that may consider them selves Southern Baptists. I ask why? What makes you put yourself in with that type of person? Personally I thought they were Mormon. But I guess if I was given the choice between being Mormon and Southern Baptist, I would have chosen a shotgun too.
In closing, don't ask or tell me to respect your religion or beliefs. I don't walk into your church and ask or tell you and your fellow history deniers to think and rationalize! If that happened, immediately the Bible goes where it belongs! In libraries and bookstores all over the world the Bible would be placed into Mythology. I fear death just like any normal, sane person on this Earth. The difference between having faith in religion and having faith in your fellow human is reality!
I by no way meant this to come off as rude towards you but it seems that you feel that you need to resopnd to me that way. I am not Mormon, I am a Christian, by definition, a Southern Baptist. The reason that I have identified myself with this denomination is because I believe the Bible to be true 100%, with no faults, nothing left out and only in there what God wants in there. FYI, Mormons allowed blacks to become memebers a couple of decades ago. I never said to respect my religion, I just said that you should still respect the person that believes in the religion. Like I said before, i believe in God but would never be disrespectful to you for your beliefs or for any reason. I may not agree with your thoughts on God but that is okay, you have a right to believe in whatever you want and so do I. I am okay with your beliefs, it doesnt effect how I believe. You pretty much said if I didnt like what you wrote, that I could not read it. I agree with you but I was interested in what you were saying. you, yourself said that if we had questions and so forth to ask. I am not sure why you mentioned the mouse wire and beating my children. I have never beaten my children for asking a question about religion. I actually encourage it, I want my children to know what they believe for themselves not because I told them to or a man in a pulpit told them to believe what he says. I am raising my children as Christians, I would assume that you are not raising your children that way and that is okay. Also, you didnt upset me with your blog, I was just commenting on it.
ReplyDeleteI will start off by saying I respect your views and ideas on organized religion. I was once an atheist myself and question every single aspect of the religion.
ReplyDeleteMy personal finding is that I disagree with religion the "excuse" not religion the "belief." What I mean when I say that is your example "I will never respect a form of belief that has murdered untold millions and tortured untold millions in order to further their religion." This to me a prime example of religion the "Excuse." For longer than my or your existence people we told not to question what "God" has told them to do, which has caused people to start using the excuse of God has told them to respond with a certain action so they do not have to answer for their own actions.
Religion the "belief" has been changed to fit whatever anyone wants it to say to help people sleep at night (agreed?) but the basic of most religions is be a good person and do the right thing to help yourself as well as mankind. If people did this who claim they are religious then the world would be a better place.
Ultimately I think at the end of the day it boils down to people have falsely represented religion and people have judged based on people reactions.
Just so you know I understand the point of your blog is to express your thoughts and ideas which I respect and by no means am I saying your thoughts are incorrect. Nor am I trying to convert you to a religion nor ask for you to respect religion. I am trying to express a different point of view from someone who has seen things from several different views along with my life expereinces which and thus led me to this view on life.
RE: "but the basic of most religions is be a good person and do the right thing to help yourself as well as mankind."
ReplyDeleteLet's get real here....Actually, the basis of most religions is fear....fear of the unknown and fear of death.....the selfish fear that we are not going to live forever. It's very egotistical when you think about it. The main purpose of Christianity is to die and go to heaven where you will be rewarded in one way or another forever.....not to help people on this earth and not to enrich and take care of the planet. Maybe the act of getting together with other people in a social setting sometimes leads to actually helping mankind in certain circumstances, but it also discriminates against others who are considered outsiders because they don't think the same and don't worship the same or any god.
So, the ultimate goal is always too far in the future to really be that helpful. Religion is always controlling and always egotistical in one way or another.
With all do respect, I believe we are mixing up bases and teaching methods.
DeleteI am in agreement that most religions play on fear, which what doesn't play on fear? I could say the same of an atheist, they speak out on religions based on a fear of conforming to what they feel is a false belief.
I think that most people who are “religious” are “religious” because it is what we are suppose to do (or so we are taught at an early age). We are suppose to pray before each meal, we are suppose to think God for the good things, but most of the “religious” people have never opened the bible or their minds which give people with the same beliefs as yourself something to harp on. I am by no means saying you are wrong for attacking those people, in fact, I make a lot of statements towards people like that myself.
I also think that a lot of people use being an atheist as pure shock value. The thought of not believing in God in this part of the country is just absurd and means there is something wrong, when in some cases (again not all) people do it because they don't care either way and they just want to aggravate people. I am sure you could agree with this as well, not saying you do it for that reason, but I am sure you know people who do it for that one reason.
As far as saying people who are religious don't help mankind is partly true. If someone took their religion serious, they are helping the fellow man. I think with making that statement you are opening another conversation that most atheists can not hold a debate about religion in a respectful manner, most are profanity and insult laced statements that show no respect to the fellow man.
To sum this up, everyone could go back and forth with examples of a good religious person, or a person with no religious fundamentals that is still a good person. There are also bad examples of people who use religion as an excuse and atheists who do bad things as well.
".....not to help people on this earth and not to enrich and take care of the planet. "
ReplyDeleteBut (as a Christian, as well as a human being) I am suppose to take care of this Earth, esp. the people of this Earth...I'm to do whatever I can to help end child slavery, human trafficking, etc... And I don't do it to get a reward in Heaven.. in fact, IF that is the reason I do it.. then there is no reward for me in Heaven.. I lose that potential reward...So what you are saying about that contradicts what I read in the Bible...
I do agree that some Atheists do say and try to defend Atheism without actually knowing what it is to be an Atheist. I will say this though, myself, Sister Judee, Sister Jenny and Brother Steven aren't that type of Atheist. I run into more Atheists claiming to be Atheists just for a shock rock kind of mentality, like, look at me I disagree with you! But there is absolutely no foundation or substance to their fight or said belief. I would like to know what I said contradicted your Bible? Which Bible translation are you reading?
ReplyDeleteTaylor stated that Atheists: "speak out on religions based on a fear of conforming to what they feel is a false belief".
ReplyDeleteSorry, you can't just put a few words together in reverse and make them come out as truth. There is no fear in Atheism. We do not "fear to conform to a false belief", we just flat out don't believe. In this country, it takes courage (not fear) to stand up against the Christian majority and to express what we really believe. If we, as atheists, were given any kind of respect to believe as we want, there would be no need for blogs such as this.
Most atheists do not use profanity toward religions....they just don't agree with them and are finally (in this country) trying to stand up for their rights to think as they want without being categorized as "profane". If some do use profanity, maybe they are finally fighting back against the discrimination toward them for all of history. Take a step back and think for a moment how atheists in this country are treated and talked about. Just because they think differently, they are vilified as perverts, criminals, and the slime of the world. I took this name-calling from a newsletter sent out by evangelicals...this is not unusual at all. (I'm not saying you feel this way, Taylor, but in general this is how atheists are portrayed.) Even though most atheists are more educated than the rest of the population, they cannot really run for office without being attacked...and there's no way they could win in this country. (Well, there are a couple in Washington who have since come out as atheists...very, very brave men....sorry, no fear there.)
So, you cannot describe an atheist as being fearful. We do not fear the fires of "hell", and while we fear pain and suffering while dying like everyone else, we do not fear death itself.
You are right, Taylor, that some Christians do try to help other people in this world; however, it is almost always attached to the ulterior motive of preaching to them or converting them. I have very up close and personal experience with this, as my brother is one of those people. What ever happened to just helping people out of their misery, period? When I try to help people, I just try to help them with their particular life problem. I don't try to convert them in any way and don't even mention religion or anyone's belief about anything. To me, this is the way it should be. That is a topic that ideally should never even come up at all, because basically we are all just the same deep down. A person should be afforded the right to think as they want without being vilified for it....as long as they're not harming others. Unfortunately, Christianity over the ages has done just that.
I think a lot of atheists act more "Christ-like" than a lot of Christians. AND, they do it just because they want to help their fellow man and have empathy....not for rewards and not because they are afraid of future punishment if they don't. So, I ask you, which is the better philosophy?....to do something because your religion says you must (and therefore you must also force your religion on other people in the process)... or to do it because it's just the natural and right thing to do? If there were no religion at all, human beings would still know right from wrong. It's a natural, evolutionary process. Again, the invention of religion was based on fear of the unknown...in the beginning and now.
Laura...you also sound like a really nice person, but I would be interested to know how the Bible negates slavery in any way. I grew up in church 3 times a week and have read the Bible many times. I may have forgotten a few passages though...ha...since they are so contradictory. The only thing I remember the Bible saying against slavery is that you should not take members of your own tribe as slaves...in other words, the "chosen people" could not make slaves of their own people, but anyone else was fair game. Please enlighten me as to the passage of which you are speaking. (I'm not saying this cynically....I really want to know.) Maybe it's there, and then maybe you're just a really good person anyway...whether you had religion or not...and have interpreted it that way. Again, we are all so much alike. There are good and bad people of all stripes. If atheists seem to be lashing out at times, it's because we have been treated like the scum of the earth and have been called horrible names for thousands of years...for no reason and are tired of it. I grew up in a Southern Baptist household and church, but I have seen much, much more REAL compassion and caring for others in connection with other non-believers. But, unfortunately, that's the nature of organized religion...it forms hierarchies and cliques which must have power over others and then it often ruins or at least overshadows any possible individual compassion. Maybe if we could just do away with the churches and just all be "good people" individually no matter what our religious nor non-religious views. But, people need social activities, and going to church is fine, as long as you don't discriminate against others. I'm 63 years old, and in my experience, discrimination is rampant in the churches.
ReplyDeleteAgain, enlighten me on those Bible passages...even though I don't think the Bible is divine in any way, shape, or form.
I was saying that the statement from Judee about Christianity contradicts my Bible..
ReplyDeleteThey said:
"The main purpose of Christianity is to die and go to heaven where you will be rewarded in one way or another forever.....not to help people on this earth and not to enrich and take care of the planet."
Then of course, I responded to that above...that I don't believe this way.. that Christianity isn't suppose to be like that.
Judee---I wasn't trying to talk about slavery, I was just trying to make a point honestly... I don't really know by heart many passages about slavery except that if you are a slave you should obey your master (unless of course your master tells you do sin)... I did not grow up in church, I did not grow up in a Christian household.. The only times God's name was mentioned was in vain, when my father said "Goddamn this, Goddamn that." If church ever was mentioned, my mother discouraged me from going because that was something I could "learn about when I was grown." So I grew up knowing nothing really about any religion or God or whatever...
ReplyDeleteI am sorry that you have been treated like scum for your beliefs, I don't think that people should be treated like that for any reason. I don't try to force my beliefs upon people, I do tell them about my beliefs, but if no one wants a part of it, then I do as Jesus says in the Bible "shake the dust off your feet and leave" I don't remember the exact passage for that, if you'd like I can look it up...but I never recall in the Bible where Jesus said for us to treat people like scum or force our "religion" down their throats..
Well, that is definitely one purpose of this blog. This point. Laura, that is your philosophy of Christianity. That is what you somehow take from this belief of a religion based around human sacrifice. Even Jesus preached or taught the people of his day and age to not plan ahead for tomorrow. To sell and give away all of your belongings and follow him. The end of the world was near.
ReplyDelete-Jesus falsely predicting end times.
+ Mark 13:30-31, "Amen, and I say to you,this generation will not pass away until all of these things have taken place. Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."
+ Mark 9:1, "Amen, I say to you, there are some men standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God has come to power."
+ Luke 9:27 "Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."
My point is this, what is YOUR interpretation of this? What can you pull from these quotes? MY personal interpretation is,he was speaking to these gullible people and telling them not only that he was the son of their god, but the end of the world is coming, do not worry about tomorrow. Everytime he said, "I tell you the truth", or "Truly I say to you", or "I say to you", this are points in his contradiction of pat and present teachings of the heads of the Jewish teachings. He was being beaten and chased out of every little village he was preaching because he did contradict Abraham, Noah and Moses' teachings.
I know most Christians when they say that Jesus is coming and the end of the world is near, they say that no one knows what a day is to God or Jesus. Fine, Fair enough. What is a generation then? Who might he be speaking to when he says that, there are some standing here that will not pass away... Are you going to give me the argument of that he is speaking directly to you? The way I look at that argument is, a broken clock is right twice a day. Everyone's world will end one day, everyone will have a Revelation, (greek for unveiling), everyone will have their personal apocalypse.
You say that Christianity isn't supposed to be like that, but the lunatic the religion is named after preached and taught that very lesson!
You asked me my interpretation of these verses, I have written my thoughts below each one.
ReplyDelete+ Mark 13:30-31, "Amen, and I say to you,this generation will not pass away until all of these things have taken place. Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."
He's not talking *about* the generation that he was talking *too.*
He's talking about the generation that will be in the end times when all these things happen, you're tripping up on the fact that he said "this generation"...this generation of people will not pass away, meaning the human race will not pass away until heaven and earth do.
+ Mark 9:1, "Amen, I say to you, there are some men standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God has come to power."
When Jesus said "kingdom of God" he meant his resurrection.
+ Luke 9:27 "Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."
Meaning the same as the verse above.. these men did not taste of death until after his resurrection.
Laura...You and I have one thing in common. My Dad also continually cursed and said "Goddamit" about 100 times a day and plenty more with that. The only difference is that my Dad was the big Deacon in the church and admired by all there. He was also abusive to my mother and sometimes to his kids. He was one person at church and in public and a totally different one at home. (The real man was the one at home.) So, the hypocrisy was rampant all around me. Therefore, I "judge" people by their actions....not by what they say they believe or by what they say they don't believe. People will say, "Well your Dad was not a "real" Christian"....but maybe he read his Bible a little too closely, and maybe he WAS the real Christian, because the Bible and even Jesus are all about authority and domination.....male domination. They tell you what to do without thinking, and then you must do it. The "good" things Jesus was quoted as saying in the Bible are just common sense, but there are plenty of vile passages, too, which make no sense unless you are willing to discriminate. So, anyway, I had no choice in attending church, but I did learn my Bible which is why I know all the horrible things it propounds. Since you don't remember many quotes on slavery, here we go:
ReplyDeleteEphesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men.
2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
Leviticus 25:44-45
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
So, my point and Justin's point is that you don't need an authoritative and patriarchal ancient "book" to tell you how to live your life. It's just nature and common sense to treat your fellow man as you would have them treat you. This (the golden rule) was stated many, many times in prior and in other simultaneous civilizations before the Bible was written....(it's not the oldest written word by the way.) And, we don't need it to be written anyway in order to be good and decent people. Why? Because even if we didn't have books and oral language, it's just to our benefit to help each other out .....it's just a natural thing we do as humans and as animals. When people don't do that, they have either learned bad examples from other people or they have mental problems.
Laura said: "but I never recall in the Bible where Jesus said for us to treat people like scum or force our "religion" down their throats.."
No, he didn't have to say that. He just said if you don't believe in me as your Master and Lord, you will burn in hell for eternity. That's seems just a tad bit more harsh, don't you think?